I had a lovely yaupon holly by my driveway when I moved to Texas in 2006. It was planted too close to the foundation and had to be taken out. I'd have tried to save it if I'd known what I've learned since.
Susan, liked your comments on the Holly tea I have several hollies on our property but not sure if they are the same ones you speak of. (That's why we are called Holly Tree Cottage.)
I notice the zones mentioned were 7 -9. Why would it not be ok in zone 10? As I recall, zone 10 doesn't freeze. Does that mean that Yaupon Holly needs some freezing? As I live in coastal Los Angeles County, I have found the Sunset garden zones to be more helpful. This is USDA zone 10 and Sunset Zone 24. Ilex vomitoria is shown as ok in zone 24 and other zones with less ocean influence.
This is so new to me, Susan. Came across yaupon holly in Florida but didn’t know its history or uses. Do remember being told roasted ground dandelion root was used as a coffee substitute during WWII but I’d guess no caffeine!
Right--and dandelion is a diuretic, so there's that. 🤔 I remember going with my mom to a neighbor's basement during the war to buy a can of black-market coffee. I can still smell the powerful coffee smell as we went down the steps. (I must've been about 3.) It's the first smell I can recall, as a distinctive, memorable odor.
Yes, a wonderful and memorable aroma. The old-style general store in the village we lived in had open tubs of coffee beans (as well as tea, sugar, flour, salt and so on) and a wonderful huge old coffee grinder on the counter - I loved to watch scoops of beans going in the top and coming out as a glorious smelling powder at the bottom.
It was Goring-on-Thames in Berkshire, nearest town Reading.
Very small village then! A church, a chapel, a village school, the general store, bakery, smithy - probably a pub but I wouldn’t have known. And lots of farms where Land Girls and Italian POWs seemed to do all the work.
Both the Land Girls and the POWs were sorely needed, I'm sure. Beatrix Potter lamented not being able to find workers in those years. (She died in 1943). Must've been very difficult.
Fresh-ground is almost worth the effort just for that aroma, IMO. How lovely that your village store had it. Must have been hard to get! Here, in those years, it was strictly rationed.
I also remember Camp coffee, a rather syrupy liquid, chicory and coffee essence with sugar, and still available on Amazon! Precursor to instant coffee, I guess.
BTW. I usually set this so that only supporting and comped subscribers can get into the comments. I make an exception on "All About Thyme" but the other posts are all paywalled at the comment point. That gives us more privacy back here. And keeps the traffic down. 😘
I wrote this book about old recipes used to feed/treat sick people. It was one of my most joyous research and writing experiences, finding out about such things. I've ordered your book so I can keep learning
When elders and sick people lived w/their families, there was a lot of emphasis in magazines and newspapers (esp. newspapers?) on cooking for them. Bet you found recipes for tapioca. You don't see that much these days. (At least, that's my impression.)
There was--also sections in cookbooks up until the mid 20s. Before that, and the best, handed down from one generation to the next and practiced since the elderly were kept at home. Tapioca! yes, there are. I make it every now with different milk bases. Also Irish moss pudding. I swear they make everyone feel better even when not sick!
I love yaupon tea! It is less "puckery" than black tea since it doesn't have the tannic acid. Here in NW Florida it can sucker like crazy, so I haven't planted any. I don't know if the berries have caffeine, interesting thought. I have read that commercial producers plant male bushes, since the small leaves are easier to harvest without getting berries too. There's an attractive weeping form, too. The history is intriguing. Maybe I'll plant a couple and just deal with suckers.
Ours doesn't sucker--maybe too dry? But it does start readily from seed, so we do have bird-assisted volunteers. The berries are said to be toxic, but not to the birds. The deer don't prefer it. There's buzz about it lately, with its several promising potentials.
Susan, I have this growing wild in my back yard, however, mine does not get the red berries. Would the birds eat them before they get a chance to turn red?
Trudie, hollies are dioecious, either female or male. The male plants don't produce betteries. But the leaves seem to be the same (male/female), caffeine-wise.
Susan, I never knew any of this. How have I missed black drink, Yaupon and the whole English advertising campaign to dissuade the public from trying it? I find it all quite interesting. Yaupon looks like a lovely plant for the yard. Do the birds like the beautiful red berries as they do the other holly berries? To me that would be another reason to have it nearby. Or do Yaupon berries have caffeine in them? We have laughed at the bird getting tipsy on our Oso berries ... but birds getting a buzz ...hmm?
Yaupon looks like it would be very pretty to add to a holiday wreath. Could be an easy way to dry some leaves for brewing for the new year. Love that you are sharing your Herbal Notebook!
I've been pondering native plants and wondering whether I should focus more on the locally native plants. Yaupon sounds like an interesting addition to my perennial plantings, but not native here, only in the eastern half of the country. Is it likely to escape and have a negative effect on other plants? I've noticed that some plants with eastern North American origins outperform the locally native varieties, bush hazels being a case in point. My beaked hazels are not doing as well as the eastern varieties. I have also thought about growing regular tea (camelia sinensis). If I had the energy to monitor them all, it would be interesting to plant both and observe over years. There don't seem to be any locally native sources of caffeine.
Meanwhile, my women's choir has returned from the quadrennial GALA festival and at this point 33% have tested positive for Covid (So far, I'm not). A couple of the positives are people who masked through most of the travel and festivals. Singing really does seem to be a high-risk activity.
Hi Patricia, we are on the same wavelength with questions about introducing this nonnative plant. I will ask our County Agent for advice. For all I know it may be available in our local nurseries. Some reasons I am considering planting it other than a way to develop a low caffeine morning beverage, are that I am guessing it is drought tolerant and the berries seem to be okay for the birds.... But what about other critters and children?! hmm? Have certain birds built up a tolerance to the poison that our birds may not have? Things to find out.
Wow, sorry to hear about so many of your choir members testing positive for Covid. You may want to isolate a day or two when you get home, just to be sure you are not carrying it back to your wife. Do hope she is doing well and that you continue to be Covid free. With your news and President Biden getting Covid, I guess I will be one of many people getting my booster this week! 😀
I wouldn't worry about the berries. They're very tart. Not even a kid would eat more than one. Or get a male plant and forgo the berries. But they do make a nice holiday touch in December.
Thank you for this info Susan. I am waiting for my pharmacy to open up so I can check about the booster, too. Good to know about the berries being pretty but not enticing! Thank you for bringing Yaupon to our attention! Do you remember the comedian, Cliff Arquette? He loved American History. I think he could have had fun with black drink and its history! 😀
Cliff Arquette? Gosh, haven't thought of him for years. Yes, I'd like to have heard his take on yaupon. 😃 What's interesting to me about yaupon is the reminder that many, many plants have played a role in political life--like leeks, as a symbol of Welsh rebellion. An aspect of the green world that we don't know much about.
The role of plants in political history sounds like an interesting post to me! 🤗 I do know about leeks representing Wales and the Scottish thistle ..... and President Bush Sr. hating Broccoli .... As you can see, I need to be filled in! 😅
I mentioned Cliff Arquette because we could use some humor about now. Not sarcastic crap disguised as humor but something original with a bit of wit.
I wish I had gotten a booster in June; thought about it several times and never made the effort. Most of us came home on Sunday or Monday. The first person had tested positive on Sunday morning, while still in Minneapolis, another after she got home on Monday. Five on Tuesday, 6 today. I wasn't worried or isolating till Tuesday morning, and have been since. Spouse was already mildly sick before I got home, but she hasn't done any testing. She's mostly coping with the multiple broken bones, and doing very well in spite of everything. I need to make a choice about how long to isolate, since I have things to do, out of the house, on Thursday afternoon, Friday morning, and Sunday afternoon. If I'm still negative tomorrow morning I will probably stop testing unless I show symptoms.
It's complicated, isn't it? But we mostly can do things to protect ourselves and people around us. I am lucky in that I rarely need to go anywhere. But, since I take public Transportaion (all of which are basically Covid incubators as far as I am concerned) I wear a mask and wash my hands often. And try to keep up with the boosters. One reason I am mindful to do these things is that several of my customers on the east coast are still dealing with fairly serious after effect of Covid. I do not want any of that! Stay safe Patricia. IMHO - it is worth the bother. Good to hear that your spouse is doing as good as she is! Wish her well for me! 😃
This plant is getting some nice buzz lately, because of increasing commercial interest, both as a landscape ornamental and because of some promise as a pharmaceutical. The berries are reported toxic--I don't know if they have caffeine. Here's a quick, easy-read report: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/yaupon-tea It's the combination caffeine, theobromine, and polyphenols that interests researchers. I'll post next week on yerba mate, a South American holly.
Again, all interesting to know! Thank you for the link. As to the possible nutritional benefits of Yaupon, they sound terrific! I wonder if anyone will bother to develop a decaf version? 😃 I can dream about a cocoa-Yaupon decaf that is also good for me !!
I have drunk yerba mate and somewhat enjoyed it. But I had to give it up when I needed to cut back on caffeine to lower my tinnitus noise. Still, I will be very interested to read your post on it.
I kinda doubt the yaupon market is large enough to support decaf, especially since the attraction of this North American plant is its caffeine. Afraid you'll have to stick to decaf China tea.
Yes, I agree. That's why I will be dreaming of such a decaf for the possible health benefits. ... sigh Though there are a number of us with tinnitus out here. Maybe we should lobby for our case! 🤩 Till then, I can drink 2 cups a day of a nice green/black tea blend by Tetley. After that its water or various herb teas. Luckily, there are several I enjoy. Including your Jezebel Tea combination!
Still think the Yaupon is a pretty plant and worth trying, possible suckers and bird starts and all. The weeping variety sounds interesting, too! 😃
We have a variety of stunted Holly that grows only to about knee high with perfectly formed miniature holly leaves. But the plants usually look pretty scruffy and not too ornamental or even good for bouquets. Kind of like how Oregon Grape is better left in the wild.
I had a lovely yaupon holly by my driveway when I moved to Texas in 2006. It was planted too close to the foundation and had to be taken out. I'd have tried to save it if I'd known what I've learned since.
Oh, too bad. I know the feeling, exactly. Lost a big bay shrub because I didn't pay attention to it, didn't realize it was heat stressed.
Susan, liked your comments on the Holly tea I have several hollies on our property but not sure if they are the same ones you speak of. (That's why we are called Holly Tree Cottage.)
PS I think I am now back on the right month.
I notice the zones mentioned were 7 -9. Why would it not be ok in zone 10? As I recall, zone 10 doesn't freeze. Does that mean that Yaupon Holly needs some freezing? As I live in coastal Los Angeles County, I have found the Sunset garden zones to be more helpful. This is USDA zone 10 and Sunset Zone 24. Ilex vomitoria is shown as ok in zone 24 and other zones with less ocean influence.
It's widely recommended for zone 10, Mary. And I see it (online) for LA County.
Agree: the local microclimate information is usually better than the broader, generalized USDA info.
Does drinking Youpon holly cause digestive problems?
No more than any caffeinated beverage--has chemical compounds very similar to China teas.
This is so new to me, Susan. Came across yaupon holly in Florida but didn’t know its history or uses. Do remember being told roasted ground dandelion root was used as a coffee substitute during WWII but I’d guess no caffeine!
Right--and dandelion is a diuretic, so there's that. 🤔 I remember going with my mom to a neighbor's basement during the war to buy a can of black-market coffee. I can still smell the powerful coffee smell as we went down the steps. (I must've been about 3.) It's the first smell I can recall, as a distinctive, memorable odor.
Yes, a wonderful and memorable aroma. The old-style general store in the village we lived in had open tubs of coffee beans (as well as tea, sugar, flour, salt and so on) and a wonderful huge old coffee grinder on the counter - I loved to watch scoops of beans going in the top and coming out as a glorious smelling powder at the bottom.
At roughly the age you were with your coffee memory, it never occurred to me to ask how that store managed still to have coffee.
Old stock? I guess the beans would store well. Must get out that coffee grinder
Would have been mid-1943 for me or early 44. Where was your village?
It was Goring-on-Thames in Berkshire, nearest town Reading.
Very small village then! A church, a chapel, a village school, the general store, bakery, smithy - probably a pub but I wouldn’t have known. And lots of farms where Land Girls and Italian POWs seemed to do all the work.
Both the Land Girls and the POWs were sorely needed, I'm sure. Beatrix Potter lamented not being able to find workers in those years. (She died in 1943). Must've been very difficult.
Fresh-ground is almost worth the effort just for that aroma, IMO. How lovely that your village store had it. Must have been hard to get! Here, in those years, it was strictly rationed.
I also remember Camp coffee, a rather syrupy liquid, chicory and coffee essence with sugar, and still available on Amazon! Precursor to instant coffee, I guess.
Thanks for this--completely news to me! I just found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Coffee Very interesting history, especially the bit about the infinitely regressive label and the implication of servant-class. And I had no idea that chicory grew in England! https://botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/c/chicor61.html
Susan - I thought I was subscribed - but I keep seeing a notice to subscribe??? I check your stuff out all the time. ???
Substack routinely adds that invitation to all emails, Carolyn (as other mailers do). Just ignore them. You are subscribed.
Thank GOODNESS!! I would hate to lose this connection...
BTW. I usually set this so that only supporting and comped subscribers can get into the comments. I make an exception on "All About Thyme" but the other posts are all paywalled at the comment point. That gives us more privacy back here. And keeps the traffic down. 😘
Okay. THANKS AGAIN AND AGAIN!!
My regular cup of tea isn't doing it for me these days so onward with the search! Thank you!!
There are some interesting alternatives out there.
I wrote this book about old recipes used to feed/treat sick people. It was one of my most joyous research and writing experiences, finding out about such things. I've ordered your book so I can keep learning
When elders and sick people lived w/their families, there was a lot of emphasis in magazines and newspapers (esp. newspapers?) on cooking for them. Bet you found recipes for tapioca. You don't see that much these days. (At least, that's my impression.)
There was--also sections in cookbooks up until the mid 20s. Before that, and the best, handed down from one generation to the next and practiced since the elderly were kept at home. Tapioca! yes, there are. I make it every now with different milk bases. Also Irish moss pudding. I swear they make everyone feel better even when not sick!
Is your book available on your website? Do give us a link--some readers may want to check it out.
I see that wild-gathered Irish moss is available on Amazon. I'm amazed.
My site is down for some reason I should check out....otherwise Abebooks is a good cheap source for A Soothing Broth
https://www.abebooks.com/9780767901482/Soothing-Broth-Willard-Pat-0767901487/plp
I bought mine at a Caribbean market. It's showing up in fancy health drinks these days.
Thanks. It is frightening to think how many things are being affected and will be affected by climate change.
Indeed--something new emerges every day. Especially concerned about species loss, both animal and plant.
I love yaupon tea! It is less "puckery" than black tea since it doesn't have the tannic acid. Here in NW Florida it can sucker like crazy, so I haven't planted any. I don't know if the berries have caffeine, interesting thought. I have read that commercial producers plant male bushes, since the small leaves are easier to harvest without getting berries too. There's an attractive weeping form, too. The history is intriguing. Maybe I'll plant a couple and just deal with suckers.
Ours doesn't sucker--maybe too dry? But it does start readily from seed, so we do have bird-assisted volunteers. The berries are said to be toxic, but not to the birds. The deer don't prefer it. There's buzz about it lately, with its several promising potentials.
Susan, I have this growing wild in my back yard, however, mine does not get the red berries. Would the birds eat them before they get a chance to turn red?
Trudie, hollies are dioecious, either female or male. The male plants don't produce betteries. But the leaves seem to be the same (male/female), caffeine-wise.
Susan, I never knew any of this. How have I missed black drink, Yaupon and the whole English advertising campaign to dissuade the public from trying it? I find it all quite interesting. Yaupon looks like a lovely plant for the yard. Do the birds like the beautiful red berries as they do the other holly berries? To me that would be another reason to have it nearby. Or do Yaupon berries have caffeine in them? We have laughed at the bird getting tipsy on our Oso berries ... but birds getting a buzz ...hmm?
Yaupon looks like it would be very pretty to add to a holiday wreath. Could be an easy way to dry some leaves for brewing for the new year. Love that you are sharing your Herbal Notebook!
I've been pondering native plants and wondering whether I should focus more on the locally native plants. Yaupon sounds like an interesting addition to my perennial plantings, but not native here, only in the eastern half of the country. Is it likely to escape and have a negative effect on other plants? I've noticed that some plants with eastern North American origins outperform the locally native varieties, bush hazels being a case in point. My beaked hazels are not doing as well as the eastern varieties. I have also thought about growing regular tea (camelia sinensis). If I had the energy to monitor them all, it would be interesting to plant both and observe over years. There don't seem to be any locally native sources of caffeine.
Meanwhile, my women's choir has returned from the quadrennial GALA festival and at this point 33% have tested positive for Covid (So far, I'm not). A couple of the positives are people who masked through most of the travel and festivals. Singing really does seem to be a high-risk activity.
Not likely to be a pest or any kind of threat, no. Ours (all wild) have survived below zero winters.
Sorry about your choir--hope you're able to stay non-Covid!
Hi Patricia, we are on the same wavelength with questions about introducing this nonnative plant. I will ask our County Agent for advice. For all I know it may be available in our local nurseries. Some reasons I am considering planting it other than a way to develop a low caffeine morning beverage, are that I am guessing it is drought tolerant and the berries seem to be okay for the birds.... But what about other critters and children?! hmm? Have certain birds built up a tolerance to the poison that our birds may not have? Things to find out.
Wow, sorry to hear about so many of your choir members testing positive for Covid. You may want to isolate a day or two when you get home, just to be sure you are not carrying it back to your wife. Do hope she is doing well and that you continue to be Covid free. With your news and President Biden getting Covid, I guess I will be one of many people getting my booster this week! 😀
We're getting boosted as soon as it's available.
I wouldn't worry about the berries. They're very tart. Not even a kid would eat more than one. Or get a male plant and forgo the berries. But they do make a nice holiday touch in December.
Thank you for this info Susan. I am waiting for my pharmacy to open up so I can check about the booster, too. Good to know about the berries being pretty but not enticing! Thank you for bringing Yaupon to our attention! Do you remember the comedian, Cliff Arquette? He loved American History. I think he could have had fun with black drink and its history! 😀
Cliff Arquette? Gosh, haven't thought of him for years. Yes, I'd like to have heard his take on yaupon. 😃 What's interesting to me about yaupon is the reminder that many, many plants have played a role in political life--like leeks, as a symbol of Welsh rebellion. An aspect of the green world that we don't know much about.
The role of plants in political history sounds like an interesting post to me! 🤗 I do know about leeks representing Wales and the Scottish thistle ..... and President Bush Sr. hating Broccoli .... As you can see, I need to be filled in! 😅
I mentioned Cliff Arquette because we could use some humor about now. Not sarcastic crap disguised as humor but something original with a bit of wit.
All your questions are good ones.
I wish I had gotten a booster in June; thought about it several times and never made the effort. Most of us came home on Sunday or Monday. The first person had tested positive on Sunday morning, while still in Minneapolis, another after she got home on Monday. Five on Tuesday, 6 today. I wasn't worried or isolating till Tuesday morning, and have been since. Spouse was already mildly sick before I got home, but she hasn't done any testing. She's mostly coping with the multiple broken bones, and doing very well in spite of everything. I need to make a choice about how long to isolate, since I have things to do, out of the house, on Thursday afternoon, Friday morning, and Sunday afternoon. If I'm still negative tomorrow morning I will probably stop testing unless I show symptoms.
It's complicated, isn't it? But we mostly can do things to protect ourselves and people around us. I am lucky in that I rarely need to go anywhere. But, since I take public Transportaion (all of which are basically Covid incubators as far as I am concerned) I wear a mask and wash my hands often. And try to keep up with the boosters. One reason I am mindful to do these things is that several of my customers on the east coast are still dealing with fairly serious after effect of Covid. I do not want any of that! Stay safe Patricia. IMHO - it is worth the bother. Good to hear that your spouse is doing as good as she is! Wish her well for me! 😃
This plant is getting some nice buzz lately, because of increasing commercial interest, both as a landscape ornamental and because of some promise as a pharmaceutical. The berries are reported toxic--I don't know if they have caffeine. Here's a quick, easy-read report: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/yaupon-tea It's the combination caffeine, theobromine, and polyphenols that interests researchers. I'll post next week on yerba mate, a South American holly.
Again, all interesting to know! Thank you for the link. As to the possible nutritional benefits of Yaupon, they sound terrific! I wonder if anyone will bother to develop a decaf version? 😃 I can dream about a cocoa-Yaupon decaf that is also good for me !!
I have drunk yerba mate and somewhat enjoyed it. But I had to give it up when I needed to cut back on caffeine to lower my tinnitus noise. Still, I will be very interested to read your post on it.
I kinda doubt the yaupon market is large enough to support decaf, especially since the attraction of this North American plant is its caffeine. Afraid you'll have to stick to decaf China tea.
Yes, I agree. That's why I will be dreaming of such a decaf for the possible health benefits. ... sigh Though there are a number of us with tinnitus out here. Maybe we should lobby for our case! 🤩 Till then, I can drink 2 cups a day of a nice green/black tea blend by Tetley. After that its water or various herb teas. Luckily, there are several I enjoy. Including your Jezebel Tea combination!
Still think the Yaupon is a pretty plant and worth trying, possible suckers and bird starts and all. The weeping variety sounds interesting, too! 😃
We have a variety of stunted Holly that grows only to about knee high with perfectly formed miniature holly leaves. But the plants usually look pretty scruffy and not too ornamental or even good for bouquets. Kind of like how Oregon Grape is better left in the wild.